I'm working on the LLLT Postscript edition of TTFBM. Central to the PS is the fact that the book's original hardcover edition was heavily edited and then recalled before it was distributed at my father's insistence. A new, unedited version was then produced and released about 6 months later. That is the book most people have read for the last 45 years or so.

The issue I'm writing about, however, is that it seems in a few places the book really DID need some serious editing. Has anyone noticed that there are two Tatton Chantry references in it? The one in Chapter 19 suggests the events in Fair Blows the Wind had occurred 20 years before. The one in Chapter 21 indicates that it is Barnabas Sackett's ship the Abigail on which young Tatton escapes Ireland for the first time.

I can remember no complaints about this and sometimes I wonder if I'm just missing something but it DOES seem like Dad played around with both ideas and needed to cut one out but, with all the editorial chaos surrounding the book, failed to ... or, more likely, stuck something back in that should have been left out.

I'm interested in opinions ... but only of those who bother to go look at the chapters in question. I don't want to make any mistakes on this!

From memory ships names weren’t permanent. If ship ownership changed the name was often changed. My Dad’s naval history books are at my brother’s house...or one of his houses, but from memory it happened more regularly than we might think.

"We don't have any law here. Just a graveyard." LL from TREASURE MOUNTAIN

I went back and read those references again... sad to say, it has been many years since the last time.

I had noticed the seeming incongruity when I read it back when it first came out. But, as a teenager then, I just shrugged it off.
If I thought of it at all, the several times I reread it, I suppose I put the second reference as a Junior, whose life was mimicking his father's... which would not have been beyond belief.




Falcon

Falcon

There are loads of comments around this subject on the Sackett Fan page on FB. I usually point out that Tatton arrived in Bristol and the Stowaway was put ashore in, I think, Falmouth. Are you happy for me to copy and post your question on that page or will you get Paul to do it?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4132272102/

Les
Every sixty seconds you spend angry, upset or mad, is a full minute of happiness you'll never get back..


:7

Les
The English Language is weird. It can be understood through tough thorough thought though.



:7

You can do it. My assumption is that we are seeing the difference between a first and second draft of an idea. Unfortunately they both got put into the same manuscript.

In the "original publication" the very rare drastically edited one that Dad objected to, the version of the story that Pim tells was omitted. In the scramble to put everything back after Dad complained about the editor (probably working for Saturday Review Press) cutting around 100 pages, the Pim version was put back in ... I'm guessing no one had the guts to go to Dad and say, "You were right, that editing job was out of control ... but here's a problem that needs fixing. To really do a good job fixing the Pim section Chapter 19 needs to be revised not just edited.

Whether Dad then got every detail correct when he wrote Fair Blows the Wind a year or two later is another open question. That manuscript ALSO suffered from aggressive editing but at least it was caught before any were printed. Again material was shuffled back into the book at the last minute.

That was the last time we had that sort of trouble. Bantam started publishing their own hardcovers and all the editorial work was kept in house and a new editor was hired, a young man named Irwyn Applebaum who became our dear friend. He eventually went to work elsewhere but returned to run Bantam as Publisher for 15 years or so from the 1990s to the early 2000s.

There definitely aren't two Tatton Chantry's who escape from Ireland to England in the same way. that would be much too confusing because there is already the "mysterious" first Tatton Chantry who's name our character uses. Unfortunately, I know as little about that as anyone. Nor do I know who "Tatton," (our Tatton) really was supposed to be. Irish nobility of some sort.

I had noticed it a while back. There is even a question about that in this forum. Remembering a comment you had made about your dad not really liking to re-read and being uncomfortable with editing, I just assumed that he had played with two different ways to tie the Chantry family storyline to the Sackett family storyline and forgot to edit one out. In the overall storyline, I think the one about the young Tatton showing up on the ship doesn't really work. It's almost like a throw-away one liner. The overall storyline is really built around the other version. I'd also like to point out an ironic point. If you combine the three family lines (Sackett, Talon, and Chantry) into one chronology, the first and last books are both Chantry books - Fair Blows the Wind and North to the Rails.

Justintime

I agree, though Dad was committed to the Barnabas and Tatton meet scenario, he mentions it in his correspondence. The two approaches are a bit like dueling drafts ... in one manuscript.

I'd also like to say that it's really pretty slick the way your dad created three separate storylines about three families interacting over the decades with only one (as far as I've seen) error. And when you include the books where Sacketts are just mentioned or show up for supporting roles, that's 32 books (And two short stories). I like to include them all because when you do, you get a bigger picture of the West of the Sacketts. For example, in "Booty for a Badman", you learn that Tell left home at 14, joined the Union Army at 15, fought Indians for 4 years and at 19 headed to Arizona to prospect for gold. In "Griselda", he finds gold but as we learn in "Comstock Lode", the discoverer rarely gets rich. In "Dark Canyon", he has moved on to Utah for a short time and then heads east for Texas where he was probably the Sackett who inspired folks in "Chancy" to head west. Then, in 1873, the story for "Sackett" starts with him leaving Texas. I know this is pretty wordy, but point being, I think your dad was really, really good at maintaining the integrity of his overall storyline.

Justintime

I think that the only way to regain consistency is to cut the Barnabas/Tatton meeting in To the Far Blue Mountains.

It doesn't match with Fair Blows the Wind, which was written later. Tatton arrives in a different port and on a fishing boat. It doesn't match with early drafts of FBTW which seem to have been written around the same time or earlier. And they describe the arrival in England and who Tatton interacts with in more detail.

And it's an easier revision. Removing the "early Tatton" reference in Chapter 19 takes quite a bit of rewriting. Removing the Barnabas/Tatton connection in Chapter 21 is just a couple of cuts and adding a very few words. Luckily, the Lost Treasures PS is the perfect place to document it.

The drastic, "original edit" that Dad objected to removed the ENTIRE trip back to England and Ireland and, instead, cut to Barnabas moving inland from his first fort. A lot else was cut too and all the chapters were renumbered.

When Fair Blows the Wind was badly cut, the last of the books to get this treatment, Dad claimed/complained that 100 pages had been Removed from Rivers West. As far as I can tell that is not true. I reedited the whole book because I was concerned over that claim. But it WAS true with To the Far Blue Mountains. Clearly some editing was needed, but it's more like a few paragraphs rather than scores of pages.

Will this edit be in the main text of the PS TFBM or just discussed in the Post Script?
Looking forward to next years editions.

Les
Every sixty seconds you spend angry, upset or mad, is a full minute of happiness you'll never get back..


:7

Les
The English Language is weird. It can be understood through tough thorough thought though.



:7

Simply changing the name of the stowaway, possibly to an actual historical figure that fits the time period, would be the least disruptive edit. And would be in keeping with LL's established penchant for sprinkling historical figures into his works.

A fun (but easily dismissed) edit suggestion would be to make the character a Trelawney, which family was connected historically to Falmouth. And were Baronets, close enough to nobility.




Falcon

Falcon

I'm planning a textual edit to bring to the Far Blue Mountains and Fair Blows the Wind into agreement with one another. I'll put the documentation of what went on in the PS.

I like the idea of changing the stowaway to a different character but that's against my rules. I'd make the change if this was an unpublished manuscript. However, with a published piece I will only make the least invasive edit possible.

If a piece is unpublished then I'm happy to put in the sort of thing that my research tells me my Dad MIGHT have done but only if UNPUBLISHED.

Thanks for the acknowledgement. I really didn't expect much, but I appreciate the thoughtful reply.
And, the insight into the need for rules when tinkering with manuscripts, which I hadn't really given much consideration before now.




Falcon

Falcon

Back when I started editing, revising, in some cases recreating certain of Dad's stories, I made up some rules to guide my behavior and to calm critical and fan concerns (though some will still freak out no matter what ... some still think editors only fix spelling and punctuation).

So a completed and previously published story can have a certain sort of minor change, depending on the seriousness of the problem that I'm trying to address.

A completed but unpublished story has slightly less strict rules and an incomplete and, therefore, unpublished story has even fewer.

In all cases I assume that it is better to cut than to add. And, if details need to be added by me, I try to find things that came out of Dad's life or out of research or books that he was dealing with at the time.

Obviously, style has to be matched. I've had a lot of blowback over No Traveller Returns because, of course, it doesn't read like his westerns. That was never the model, however. The first draft of book itself and the extended universe that it exists in, that of the Yondering stories, has to be the basis for its style.

I have noticed the double Tatton entry in TTFBM for years and chalked it up to an LL editing miss. FBTW did take place 20 years before SL as Tatton fights in the battles of Arques and Ivry which occurred in 1589 and 1590 respectfully. He then returned to England, wrote about the battles, sailed to America and returned to Ireland with a wife and treasure around 1592 based on his travel to and time spent in London and adventures in America. Barnabas most likely found the first purse of coins around 1598 in the beginning of SL. I think LL wanted Barnabas and Tatton to link up, but the timing doesn't fit. I also like to think that the burnt hulk Barnabas takes shelter in on the Carolina coast is the remains of the original Spanish treasure ship Tatton takes the chests from in FBTW. What makes more sense for the future story would be for Brian to help Tatton in some way or for Noelle to meet one of Tatton's children. The timing could have worked for this to happen in subsequent Chantry or Sackett stories.

I think you've got it right. You're right that the timelines for Tattan Chantry and Barnabas Sackett just doesn't support them meeting with Tattan as a young lad. It's probably something he overlooked or just forgot. But, I still think it's pretty amazing how well he maintained the story arc overall for the three families.

Justintime

Beau, I recognize and commend your reluctance to make any change to your dad's stories. After all, they are his stories. But, I think this is one of those instances where he would recognize the contradiction to the time line and agree with a change. And, I don't think the change you are considering affects the storyline in the least and actually corrects a contradiction to the overall Chantry/Sackett story arc.

Justintime

You are correct.

I have no issues with making changes but, as I mentioned, I like to follow the rules I have set out. I'm not absolute about it, but the rules need to be consulted before I decide to obey or ignore them, and various types of changes need to be carefully considered on different types of material. Typically, if I can fix a problem by removing material rather than adding it, then that's what I do.

This needs to be fixed ... actually, it already has been. It's all noted in the Lost Treasures PS.